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deathreaperz
Commander


Joined: 20 May 2013
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject:  Crediting problem... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello guys, can i ask something?

Is it proper to use mod's asset that didn't have copyrights and the mod author was inactive for a long time? But when it used, the mod author should be credited

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All mods have intellectual copyright even if it isn't stated. If a mod author has been inactive for a long time then the copyright still stands & braking it will uncured the wrath of the community.

However many modders who have left the community have declared their assets open for anyone to use, so if you specify the mod/author we can tell you if their work is free to use.

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deathreaperz
Commander


Joined: 20 May 2013
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Eagle Red. Asset that i want to use is gclock2.shp

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

AFAIK Eagle Red's assets aren't free to use but that gclock2 has been used in many different mods over the years so I would presume it has been released for public usage.

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Askeladd
Light Infantry


Joined: 29 Dec 2013

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it's so ridiculous that this community is so anal about copyrights of long abandoned mods like say Eagle Red. If the authors were making money off of it it'd be one thing, but they don't. At the same time it's considered okay to rip from other games. Even many commercial games become abandonware eventually, so why not mods?

I would just go ahead and use what you want, as long as you credit properly. I think that's better than letting perfectly usable assets rot in old mods that hardly anybody plays anymore. Nobody gives a shit anyway besides maybe 10 people (with a chip on their shoulder) in this tiny corner of the internet. The authors certainly don't care, or they wouldn't have abandoned their mod in the first place.

Heck, why would that single shp have been released for public usage but nothing else? It was probably taken without permission enough times that it became okay to use. Proving my point.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam)
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I think it's so ridiculous that this community is so anal about copyrights of long abandoned mods like say Eagle Red. If the authors were making money off of it it'd be one thing, but they don't.


- Many authors gain reputation for their public work. They may use it to join the professional or indie game development industry (which some people actually succeeded). They can also use it to promote and make money from other services. In other occasions, they use this reputation to join the development of popular mods or to make their own mod become more popular.

Anyway, each person use the benefits of having a recognized work in the internet in the way they want, even if it doesn't make much sense for you.



Quote:
At the same time it's considered okay to rip from other games. Even many commercial games become abandonware eventually, so why not mods?


No, it's not ok. They may take its resources, but they will credit the game (which may have the credits for the real artists).

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Askeladd
Light Infantry


Joined: 29 Dec 2013

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
I think it's so ridiculous that this community is so anal about copyrights of long abandoned mods like say Eagle Red. If the authors were making money off of it it'd be one thing, but they don't.


- Many authors gain reputation for their public work. They may use it to join the professional or indie game development industry (which some people actually succeeded). They can also use it to promote and make money from other services. In other occasions, they use this reputation to join the development of popular mods or to make their own mod become more popular.

Anyway, each person use the benefits of having a recognized work in the internet in the way they want, even if it doesn't make much sense for you.

Sure, but I do not see how that is in any way mutually exclusive with what I just said. Plus you are making a lot of assumptions about the intentions of the authors (who are long gone).

Quote:
Quote:
At the same time it's considered okay to rip from other games. Even many commercial games become abandonware eventually, so why not mods?


No, it's not ok. They may take its resources, but they will credit the game (which may have the credits for the real artists).

Taking resources from games is no different from taking resources from mods. So if it's okay to rip from other games are long as you credit the developers (which is what you just said), then it must also be okay to rip from (abandoned) mods as long you credit their authors. You can't have it both ways.

For the record, I definitely agree that you must always give credits where they are due. I do not agree with the rigid attitude some people in this community have. I cannot think of another mod community that is like this.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam)
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Sure, but I do not see how that is in any way mutually exclusive with what I just said.


Why is it supposed to be mutually exclusive with what you said? You thought that the only point of crediting would be money and I've showed other possibilities that can be done with the reputation gained by publishing mods and public resources and why it makes sense to do some public pressure to get others to respect people's hard efforts.


Quote:
Plus you are making a lot of assumptions about the intentions of the authors (who are long gone).


I'm not making any assumption at all. I'm talking about possibilities of the usage of this kind of reputation. However, the way people will use it is up to them and that has to be respected. When you don't credit people for their work, you do not respect it at all.


Quote:
Taking resources from games is no different from taking resources from mods. So if it's okay to rip from other games are long as you credit the developers (which is what you just said), then it must also be okay to rip from (abandoned) mods as long you credit their authors. You can't have it both ways.


Taking resources from games as long as they do not mind. This detail in bold is extremely important. If you use the resource from a game that is an abandonware and you get a cease and desist email from the author, you should drop it immediately.

Most of the times, companies do not mind to see their resources used at non-profitable projects, even if some of them may make a harsh EULA stating otherwise. There are exceptions, such as Blizzard, who doesn't tolerate the use of their assets in mods for non-Blizzard games. Most of times, resources are ripped from products created by companies that were consulted at some point or their history in terms of hunting rippers were taken into account. For instance, EA does not mind to see their assets used in non-profitable mods, even if these mods are made for non-EA games.

Regarding mods, if the mod team does not want to be ripped, they usually use a MIX protection or state it in the ReadMe file. Eagle Red does not state anything regarding to the usage of their assets in their manual/readme files. Considering that the author has left the community, it is hard to say if these assets can actually be used. In this case, it is not recommended to use them at all, although I don't think that anyone would get in trouble for using it as long as the authors are credited. However, if the author returns and request to remove the asset, that will need to be respected.

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Askeladd
Light Infantry


Joined: 29 Dec 2013

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
Sure, but I do not see how that is in any way mutually exclusive with what I just said.


Why is it supposed to be mutually exclusive with what you said? You thought that the only point of crediting would be money and I've showed other possibilities that can be done with the reputation gained by publishing mods and public resources and why it makes sense to do some public pressure to get others to respect people's hard efforts.

Quote:
Plus you are making a lot of assumptions about the intentions of the authors (who are long gone).


I'm not making any assumption at all. I'm talking about possibilities of the usage of this kind of reputation. However, the way people will use it is up to them and that has to be respected. When you don't credit people for their work, you do not respect it at all.

I think I made it quite clear from the beginning that I agree that you must always give credits.

(IMO If you are trying to build up reputation (presumably to get a job in the games industry?) via modding RA2 you are doing it wrong. Learn the UDK or write a game from scratch for god's sake.)

Quote:

Quote:
Taking resources from games is no different from taking resources from mods. So if it's okay to rip from other games are long as you credit the developers (which is what you just said), then it must also be okay to rip from (abandoned) mods as long you credit their authors. You can't have it both ways.


Taking resources from games as long as they do not mind. This detail in bold is extremely important. If you use the resource from a game that is an abandonware and you get a cease and desist email from the author, you should drop it immediately.

Most of the times, companies do not mind to see their resources used at non-profitable projects, even if some of them may make a harsh EULA stating otherwise. There are exceptions, such as Blizzard, who doesn't tolerate the use of their assets in mods for non-Blizzard games. Most of times, resources are ripped from products created by companies that were consulted at some point or their history in terms of hunting rippers were taken into account. For instance, EA does not mind to see their assets used in non-profitable mods, even if these mods are made for non-EA games.

Regarding mods, if the mod team does not want to be ripped, they usually use a MIX protection or state it in the ReadMe file. Eagle Red does not state anything regarding to the usage of their assets in their manual/readme files. Considering that the author has left the community, it is hard to say if these assets can actually be used. In this case, it is not recommended to use them at all, although I don't think that anyone would get in trouble for using it as long as the authors are credited. However, if the author returns and request to remove the asset, that will need to be respected.

Aha, so it is okay to use resources (from abandoned mods, taking from active mods is just not polite) as long as credits are given and the authors do not mind (meaning send you angry emails afterwards). Well, then we are in agreement. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam)
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
(IMO If you are trying to build up reputation (presumably to get a job in the games industry?) via modding RA2 you are doing it wrong. Learn the UDK or write a game from scratch for god's sake.)


PPM is not restricted to RA2 (or TS) modding and it is not restricted to game designers either. It also covers 3D games...and there are also artists around here, among other things.

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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Askeladd wrote:

Aha, so it is okay to use resources (from abandoned mods, taking from active mods is just not polite) as long as credits are given and the authors do not mind (meaning send you angry emails afterwards). Well, then we are in agreement. Thanks for clearing that up.


Well, I think thats simplifying this to black and white a bit, author may be unavailable but its nice manners to use what you really need with credit, if you go taking bulk of his mod with credit in mind, that's not too nice as such would damage the source mod in essence that who wants play old mod anymore if new one has copied most of it...
Mod uniqueness should be supported where possible by limiting your 'borrowing'

I wouldn't use words 'not polite' if you take from active mods, that's just plain disrespecting their hard work when you could ask them (negotiate) maybe for asset trade.

As for that gclock, its such a minor piece that it may be borrowed but then I got eagle's permission so could be wrong guy to speak about this.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Honestly, that gclock is quite simple to recreate anyway if you waste maximum two hours of your life into it.

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater wrote:
All mods have intellectual copyright

I am curious....
Lets say, for example, Graion Dilach wants to use asset from some mod which is forbidden to use assets from. And he uses. So that mod has ,,intellectual copyright". Okay.
But can authors sue Graion Dilach? Can they send lawyers to court against him?
Second question, if he even get blocked, ignored, blacklisted, bla bla, what can be done against him if he uploads those assets in some Turkish, Chinese, Indian site? You know that there is no jurisdiction right.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Technically yes, I could be dragged to court with it and could even get a penalty about it. Keep in mind that IP protection laws vary among countries and most mod projects ain't have even a budget to hire lawyers (pro and contra).

On the other hand, many local country communities has relations with this one so booing out the ripper still ends up more effective than going legal.

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Graion Dilach wrote:
Technically yes, I could be dragged to court with it and could even get a penalty about it. Keep in mind that IP protection laws vary among countries and most mod projects ain't have even a budget to hire lawyers (pro and contra).

But how so? As far I know Westwood/EA now has right on this, their game, their engine, their files, their file types.
Blizzard went in rampage on those who used their assets because they can legally, assets are on their own copyright, but nobody of Blizzard-themed communities (war craft, star craft etc...) cannot sue anyone because they do not have right to do so. As I know there is no contract between communities and corporations which says that whoever makes anything inside company has legal right on that. You wasted your time on making something? hey what about if I waste year to create chemical or nuclear bomb? Does that mean that I have legal property for that? Can I sue thief who stolen my bomb?

Graion Dilach wrote:
On the other hand, many local country communities has relations with this one so booing out the ripper still ends up more effective than going legal.

Then how can ripper actually be stopped?
BMW in past tried to sue one company in China for copying their X5, but court said that they actually can win and stop production of that copied model, but in turn they will forbid production of original X5, so BMW had to stop pursuing. Just look at their every single car show, they have at least 10 copies of random cars showing to whole world and nothing happened to them. Several such countries are nest for such things, so if huge corporations such automobile factories could not stop others, how do you expect that simple fan-boy-game-communities can stop ripper there?

My point is that they cannot be stopped. Back then, remember that .mp3 format was illegal, cause it was designed to be copy of audio tracks. Today every single person has tons and tons of .mp3 and all audio readers can read it. DivX also was rip of DVD and tend to be illegal, but whole world was using it (rippers started first) and now you have millions of those files around the world. Many celebrities stars treated to sue everyone who hacked their profile if they release naked/porn pictures/videos in public. And guess what? Nobody gave shit about it, they released whatever they found. Did someone got punished? I do not think so. In my country (maybe it is in other countries as well), you could not beat piracy because internet happened. Why would you buy CD of some artist when you can download mp3 for free? Or go to youtube and convert to audio which you wish.  Thats how their sales failed, and now they do not depend any more of saled CDs, they now focus more of making shows, reality stuff, going to clubs, making singles etc etc... In their case piracy forced them. Why would you go to cinema and watch movie paying (expensive) ticked when you can download movie and call your friends to watch for free? Because you can. I do not download myself them because I do not have time, but my friends do.
So in reality it has been proved that it works in theory, but very low amount of people are punished comparing to what is being hacked/ripped last 20 years.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Intellectual property is the design. Mind you that EA got sued - successfully - for inserting a design into Tiberian Alliances heavily influenced by an APC from Warhammer apparently.

As far as I know the automobile scandals are completely bloodraging, but yea, that's Chinese industry for you - tbh Huawei also 1:1 copied Cisco once then started to blame Cisco for all, so Cisco reputation is ruined in China. IOW as long as you're backed by China's government, you're okay. Now tell me a mod backed by China.

Regarding your last paragraph: I know what you mean, but Eastern Europe mentality is far away from Western mentality. The West ain't doing this on such levels you can think of.

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"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Graion Dilach wrote:
Intellectual property is the design. Mind you that EA got sued - successfully - for inserting a design into Tiberian Alliances heavily influenced by an APC from Warhammer apparently.

Oh yeah, EA used those models for Forgotten vehicles.
But this is case about company vs company (whose is making profit with that stolen design). I was talking about man vs man. Or in case of PPM, community vs ripper.
Company which sued EA has that copyright because they protected that, registered their work. We did not do that and I do not believe that we even can do that, so basically anyone can stole anyone's work, your, mine, Apollo's, Speeder's, etc etc... without being properly punished.
We are not protected by any laws, we are protected only by rules which we ourselves created back in past as some kind of protection, but if we created any rules, that does not mean that they are automatically supported by law. Even if we are supported by all laws, I doubt that community especially Banshee, as owner of PPM has money enough to start pursuing ripper in court in his own country.

Graion Dilach wrote:
IOW as long as you're backed by China's government, you're okay.

I think that more problem is here in China that they do not care where from something is, they care just that something happens. Just work, work, work, produce a tons of product, from needle to cars, they prefer on work more than intellectual property. For their government, the more is better. They care more to have tons of 10 copied products than only one unique. Quantity over quality

Graion Dilach wrote:
Now tell me a mod backed by China.

I think that we believe in wrong definition here. Its not that something is specifically protected by government, its that EVERYTHING is automatically protect until someone prove yourself that stolen/copied work or production needs to be stopped. Which is difficult to do by default in such countries.

Graion Dilach wrote:
Regarding your last paragraph: I know what you mean, but Eastern Europe mentality is far away from Western mentality. The West ain't doing this on such levels you can think of.

Of course, West is at far superior level regarding this (and many other stuff), but do not forget that actually that greed came from them, rather from our countries. Fact that they have need to protect everything by every single law is that it would been heavily abused if there are no such laws. Don't forget that in top 10 the most expensive secrets around the world, most of them came from Western patents. Cola Cola for example, even protected by all laws still is in fear that their secret formula will not go outside of their bunker. Once it came out, no laws will protect it,  just because their own concurrency will start to copy that first.
Eastern countries, at least my own, behave like this very community in past. We did not have laws, but we had moral punishment, same like this. If someone stole or copy something, majority will ignore him because he did something morally wrong, they wont buy his product or he would not have cooperators, almost nobody would like to work with him. Thus he is destined to doom.
Oh and thanks on good conversation, that was productive

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ummm... you're a bit outdated. Nowadays China is getting more and more expensive because they did start to prefer quality over quantity (Malaysia and Thailand comes to my mind as quantity countries at first).

For example, last year I worked with an RFID card writer. While the documentation was GoogleTranslated, the thing itself worked a lot better than what I expected at first - it even worked more reliable than the prototype card writer the Hungarian company I worked for expanded it with!

Also in the last paragraph of yours you're merging IP defenses with monetarization. They're not that related. In fact by your logic, I'd say us would be more greedier - say, in the West, there are shops which just lend out games for try. It works there. It wouldn't work here, because face it - the first thing you'd do with the game would be to make a copy.

I had heard many stories that in the West, people pirate games to try them out - if they like them, they go and get their own legal copy. However over here, there's a lot less people who'd do it this way - we already have it, why pay then for another?

That is the cultural difference - our culture does not feel copying is a crime.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
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Askeladd
Light Infantry


Joined: 29 Dec 2013

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nobody in the world other than record companies and Hollywood think copying is a crime though.

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Graion Dilach wrote:
Ummm... you're a bit outdated. Nowadays China is getting more and more expensive because they did start to prefer quality over quantity (Malaysia and Thailand comes to my mind as quantity countries at first).

No, sorry for misunderstanding, I was mentioned in my country, and rest similar. I do not know how is it going in West, but for our markets, Chinese products are exactly as they were 10 years ago.
For silly economic country you get silly product, all Chinese stuff is about 50% or less cheaper than in markets so we are buying stuff often then in regular markets. We have few big Chinese trade markets with all copied stuff from real world, and cheaper of course, much cheaper.
I do not know what they are doing in your or EU countries, but they are forced there to be more qualitative than here.
Dont forget that you said ,,Nowadays China is getting more and more expensive because they did start to prefer quality over quantity " which is in reality that they are forced by USA and EU to produce and sell more quality and therefore, expensive stuff. They are not forced here.
They can do whatever they want here. They do not pay taxes regularly and even do not give you bill, so you give him money on hands without backup. This will be changed soon, but still....

Askeladd wrote:
Nobody in the world other than record companies and Hollywood think copying is a crime though.

Nah, in Hollywood you have too many vampires, Frankenstein and I-copy-whoever-I-like, thus they are doing too much remakes these days because they do not have new ideas.

Point is  Askeladd, what they needed to tell you in short note:
This community works as this for years. We set rules. In every community, every organization, sects, etc etc.... you have private rules. But breaking private rules does not automatically mean that you broke law therefore does not automatically mean that we are supported by law in this case. Ripping any asset is not illegal by law, it is just immoral and illegal by our rules. But whoever tend to stay here must respect rules. Problem with this community is that they are bond to modding, modding is here in this place holy job, so if you repeat to yourself 10 years something (in this case that this is actually ,,rip" and that it is ,,illegal") does not necessary mean that it is true. (You know, if you repeat some illusion for 100 times, then 101. time it will be reality, or you will think so). When Banshee tries to sue someone, judge wont talk with him as C&C fan, he will talk from neutral point, asking him to prove that our own work here is protected by law, by some contract or such. Otherwise, said ripper cannot be pursued. Especially in foreign country.
If you come here, in Serbia, and try to sue me because I stole your tank, they will laugh at you. But point still stands that this is how we work, we set rules back for good reasons, for protecting modders and artists from unwanted ,,copying" their work, thus supporting them to work more.So either right or not, anyone has right here to prevent others from using their own work. If someone does not want too, therefore we must respect that.

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Droke
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 18 May 2004
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Askeladd Nobody? Thats a rather broad statement, don't you think? I am neither part of Hollywood nor a company, but I'd be quite peeved if I saw something from one of my old projects being used without my consent. So what if the project is dead and the creator is long gone? Really, does that even matter? Oh no, you can't use the bobble you want... what a pity. Its not like you lose anything or is something taken from you; it wasn't yours to begin with.

If you need a reason, and those posted above do nothing for you, how about simple respect? Respect for the content creator, the project leader, or simply the community that has declared this a taboo?

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Droke, ah yes, I forgot to mention that too to him, matter of respect.
However, in reality, respect is also not bounded to law much. Universal Studios for example, can also find disrespectful too see so many Draculas and Frankensteins in HollyWood, but again, there is no sigh that other companies will stop producing such movies (even those movies are first created by them, its their idea, Universal Studios does not own intellectual rights somehow to those characters, so nobody cares). But here, it plays big role, I forgot to mention that. its mutual respect between author and people who appreciate their work.

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Droke
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 18 May 2004
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dracula and Frankenstein's monster were both taken from books older than Universal Studios, but not really applicable here anyways. That would be like complaining about someone adding Volkov into their project. I was referring to assets rather than concepts. Concepts are vague, variable, and subjective to each person who interprets them. I don't want to touch that argument. An asset, however, is a distinctive and definable entity that is intimately connected the the person who authored it.

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Askeladd
Light Infantry


Joined: 29 Dec 2013

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But Droke, you are still here. If you had left the community 10 years ago, would it kill you if someone were to use an asset or two from a mod that you made? Oh no, someone wants to use your bobble, what a pity. It's not like you lose anything or something is taken from you; it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever.

Out of curiosity, I am sure that you have never downloaded any music, or a movie, or a game, or perhaps a porn clip? How many people do you think consider copying unethical? That's my point. "Nobody" was obviously an overstatement, but here are some actual numbers.

Yes, respect. Like the respect this community had when it circumvented Westwood's encryption to gain access to their copyrighted works (which is illegal in the USA according to DMCA, by the way)? Hypocrites. Sure, EA tolerates it, in hindsight, when they realized that it would be good for their bottom line. Maybe this community should take a cue from EA (I can't believe I'm saying this). I think that if this community were less uptight and more inclusive in general it would have been friendlier and more lively, improving its bottom line. But it's too late now.

I do not think that reusing assets from abandoned mods is a sign of disrespect as long as you do not try to pass them off as your own work. That is all. I'm done talking about this now.

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4StarGeneral
General


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Limbo

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually no one circumvented Westwood's encryption, WW and EA actually aided people in creating assets to mod their game, see Final Alert. Nor do we openly give out games that EA hasn't released, despite their abandonment of the C&C games and even the 10+ year old RA2.

And artists in every meaning of the word care about the usage of their creations, even when they release it open-source to the public. This community was forged with respect towards each-others mods and content thereof and it would be nice to continue this way or else no one will want to bother making new content.

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

4StarGeneral wrote:
Actually no one circumvented Westwood's encryption, WW and EA actually aided people in creating assets to mod their game, see Final Alert.

yes, but they said that ANYONE can use final alert to create asset, they did not say something like ,,I give this to you, so you can assume this work yours and only yours, and I protect your work with law" which assume that we know already risk of creating something  which is fan made and putting on internet.

4StarGeneral, but I remember only one situation when EA intervened against using of their assets. Someone put some cameos of Forgotten from Tiberium Alliances once, or uploaded some screenshots, can't remember exactly, and they requested immediate removal of those assets. What was that?

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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Final Alert was allowed, but not modding. XCC and other utilities were NOT made with Westwood's blessing. The closest thing to this so-called 'support' from EA came with Renegade's asset. Westwood was worthless for modding support.

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Droke
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 18 May 2004
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm still not part of your "nobody." I have long since quit using both Cinema 4D and Corel Painter, programs I dearly loved, when I chose to quit pirating software. The only art program I have on my computer right now is Photoshop Elements, which is a severe hindrance when my school projects require the full version of both Photoshop and Illustrator. Try using that tactic on someone else, I am not a viable target.

I would mind if someone used my work even if I had been gone quite some time. If given the chance to remove my old, non-public work, without having to hunt and peck through the forums, I would take it in a heart beat. If I had been gone a decade, would it be practical for me to worry about my content being stolen? No, but it would still annoy the heck out of me... and I'm hardly the most protective from the community, specially some from the past.

And yes, respect. I respect the artists of this community, past and present, if for no other reason then they spent the time to make something. I respect those who freely shared their work, those who shared work only when it was no longer of use to them, and I respect those who chose to take their work to their modding grave.

I don't see how Westwood/EA comes into this. You can argue that it's retrospective, yes, but they have shown support. If in no other way than releasing TFD in such a way that the Rock Patch would remain a viable modding tool. In the worst case scenario, would this not amount to a dormant project leader making his assets public? Further, if Westwood/EA were concerned about this type of thing, they would have done something about it. If you notice, this is something this community has done frequently and loudly, so even then its not really a viable argument.

Lastly, as a content producer, I seriously doubt your statement about the community being friendlier and more lively if content was freely shared. I sure as heck would be a lot less likely be here, and I know of others that push it much further than I.

Really, its not I don't see what your saying, I get your logic. You are, however, excluding the expressed wishes of a fair number of individuals within the community as well as the stance held by the community in general. If you wish your work public, by all means release it. My stance on how I want my work handled doesn't have to influence how you treat your content. I've released some work myself. Hell, I used to run a modding resource site. I was pitiful at site building, yeah, but I actively created and gathered unique content to be freely shared within the community. Its not like those who wish to keep their work contained are excluded from those who have given back.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam)
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Volgin wrote:
Final Alert was allowed, but not modding. XCC and other utilities were NOT made with Westwood's blessing. The closest thing to this so-called 'support' from EA came with Renegade's asset. Westwood was worthless for modding support.


Westwood has promoted tons of fan made mods created with their own assets when it existed.  They may have not helped the fans to build XCC Mixer and other tools, because they didn't want to spend money doing it. However, once these tools were created, they were actually happy with the result and clearly expressed their satisfaction with that. In fact, they supported it in such a way that, since Renegade, they've started to supply the fans with public modding tools.

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RP
Commander


Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Volgin wrote:
Final Alert was allowed, [...]. XCC and other utilities were NOT made with Westwood's blessing.


Incorrect, Westwood Studios bought the source of Final Alert and dubbed it Final Alert 2:

Matthias Wagner wrote:
I've sold the rights to the FA2 and FA2YR source code to Westwood/EA a long time ago, [...].
Especially since parts of the YR code are incorporated into FA2YR.


This also supports Banshee's argument on Westwood promoting and expressing their satisfaction for fan projects.

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are RA2/YR maps originally made by Final Alert or Westwood used another program?

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WW had their own program. It's notoriously visible -  ini sections in the WW maps follow a logical order instead of being written out alphabetically like FA2.

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