Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:00 am Post subject:
Arcing weapon issue
During my experiments I found if you set a weapon with a arcing projectiles range to 9 or over, when firing up elevation they constantly overshoot there target. I set a Rhino's (120mm) arcing weapon to 14 range and it always overshoots the target if you try to fire over about the distance of 8 range at a elevated area, effectively limiting arcing weapons range to 8 when firing up elevated areas. Then I tried the same in TS, setting the Tick Tank's (90mm) arcing weapons range to 14 and never overshot at any range or angle.
I've tried all sorts of things to fix this, but nothing seems to work.
Is there something different about the TS and YR engine that makes this happen? Or is it a setting that is different between the two games that I can change in Rules.ini or something?
Any help would be appreciated on this, As this is quite a frustrating issue.
Here are a couple of gifs to help show what my problem with arcing weapons is.
much has changed between the engines.
In TS projectiles also "magically" jump to the target cell to hit it, even if they seem to hit the ground somewhere else (can be fixed with keys Bouncy and Elasticity, so it explodes where it hits the ground)
I don't have RA2 rules.ini at hand right now but i'm pretty sure there is a fix for the overshooting. Check out other long range arcing weapons like the grand cannon (iirc it was arcing too).
Keys like SubjectToCliffs and SubjectToElevation come to my mind now.
More interesting would be a way to make a weapon always overshoot. Such an overshooting arcing weapon would be excellent for flamethrower. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:38 am Post subject:
This is well-known and caused by the different height levels in RA2. Grand Cannon won't help you there - it's already affected.
There is no known fix for this - I think when the cellsize got increased, Arcing-based projs weren't updated - and honestly, I guess this is related to RehteA's finding that Inaccurate's spreading center ain't the actual target but a cell before that.
When I have a free day to tinker on my own, I'd try out Splits-logic with a ProjRange of half of the max range and only splitting to another cannon to see if the distance issues can be resolved that way. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
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WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I just tried the same test with the Grand Cannon and it never overshot elevated targets. So i gave the Grand Cannons weapon to the Rhino and it still overshoots. Maybe it's something to do with the Art.ini, maybe height or FireFLH or something?
EDIT: I changed the Rhino's PrimaryFireFLH setting from 150,0,100 to the Grand Cannons 250,0,230 and it no longer overshoots!! QUICK_EDIT
Curious but it may sure be that lower firing height makes up for higher arc that ends up overshooting near destination than unlike higher starting firing location not need as high arc.
Then again LH_Mouse had muttered something about arcing being screwed up logic as fired in 45 degree angle always or something, I forgot the exact comment
; SubjectToElevation = Can this bullet get a range bonus from height? No effect on homing projectiles. (def=no)
Worth a try BTW, defaultly its used as yes to add up 2 cells range per every elevation but understanding wise its supposed to effect the other way around only instead of when going uphill. QUICK_EDIT
Sadly setting SubjectToElevation=no made no difference, they still overshoot there elevated target. They only overshoot from about the distance of 9 range and above, any shots below 9 range don't overshoot (so if i move the tank close to the elevation it won't overshoot). QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:43 pm Post subject:
Yes, Arcing has Speed hardcoded. This is also known.
ROT-based projectiles work and fly completely different. The result on low ROT would be buggy, on high would look artifical. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Does RA2 still has Lobber weapons? For such long ranges i would use a Lobber in the first place, since that is supposed to be used for long ranges.
What you can also do is testing a voxel projectile (create 2x2 VXL and use that instead of 120mm). At least in TS do SHP and VXL projectiles behave different. For example, SHP missiles fly have a complete different flight behaviour than VXL missiles. And that only because of a different file format, the projectile code and weapon is the same.
Since VXL are 3d, they might show a more accurate arcing flight behaviour than SHP. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Does RA2 still has Lobber weapons? For such long ranges i would use a Lobber in the first place, since that is supposed to be used for long ranges.
Yeah Lobber still works, but still offers no control over speed or accuracy acceleration, thats the problem.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
What you can also do is testing a voxel projectile (create 2x2 VXL and use that instead of 120mm). At least in TS do SHP and VXL projectiles behave different. For example, SHP missiles fly have a complete different flight behaviour than VXL missiles. And that only because of a different file format, the projectile code and weapon is the same.
Since VXL are 3d, they might show a more accurate arcing flight behaviour than SHP.
When (if everything goes okay) I'm done I don't plan on using any projectile art. Last edited by dodgevipergts on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Speed for Lobber is hardcoded just like on Arcing
Lobber Accuracy is also the same as Arcing. Only gets Inaccurate when using the key.
If you want a very accurate (even on moving targets) long range cannon, then i'd suggest using a simple Inviso=yes projectile (like the Titan cannon in TS, no visible projectile and instant hit). Could also use a ROT=1 Projectile with Speed=90 for accurate hits.
Imagine:
Even if speed would work on arcing weapons and you set it on something like 70, you wouldn't see any flying projectile anyway. You might only see the projectile on 2 or 3 different places between firer and target, since the game lets the projectile jump big steps to get such high speeds done.
It's not like the game renders the projectile with 100 frames per second just so you see a nice flight path of the projectile, while the rest of the game runs only on something like 25 fps.
So either
-you want a projectile that is visible while flying through the air, but then you have to live with logical consequent inaccuracy (since target has lots of time to move away after shot is fired)
or
-you use a fast very accurate projectile, but then of course you won't see much of the projectile during it's flight from firer to target
dodgevipergts wrote:
When (if everything goes okay) I'm done I don't plan on using any projectile art.
Then why do you care at all about arcing? Use a simple ROT=100 Projectile instead and you're free to give it any Speed and accuracy you want. Last edited by Lin Kuei Ominae on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:46 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
I'm trying to make a weapon thats inaccurate (as you know needs arcing) but able to hit moving targets, which means I need more projectile speed.
EDIT: sorry i accidentally put "speed and accuracy" in my last post, that should read speed and acceleration. Last edited by dodgevipergts on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:45 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
Or use an invisible Cluster missile that explodes above the target and releases an inaccurate second stage that hits the target and does the damage.
Then you can set any speed on the first stage and any accuracy you want on the second stage (accuracy here controlled via the second stage ROT and Range) _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Or use an invisible Cluster missile that explodes above the target and releases an inaccurate second stage that hits the target and does the damage.
Then you can set any speed on the first stage and any accuracy you want on the second stage (accuracy here controlled via the second stage ROT and Range)
I did think about this. May be worth a try, theres bound to be issues though. How well do splits take to basically instant weapon speeds? They won't be delayed will they? QUICK_EDIT
Sounds like what you want doesn't really work. You've had some of the most experience modders attempt to help you, and you still haven't accomplished anything. I still have no idea what type of weapon you're trying to emulate, other than you want something inaccurate that hits moving targets. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:18 pm Post subject:
I still keep my opinion that splitting to a single projectile is the valid option here - but I like that one is too complex for Viper to a give a try of. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I still keep my opinion that splitting to a single projectile is the valid option here - but I like that one is too complex for Viper to a give a try of.
I have given it a try in TS a few hours ago. Thought I'd give it a go in that before wasting time trying it in YR. My conclusion is that the projectile won't be fast enough, Speed=100 missiles are not instant enough. So I haven't tried it in YR.
BTW you really are quite full of yourself.
m7 wrote:
Sounds like what you want doesn't really work. You've had some of the most experience modders attempt to help you, and you still haven't accomplished anything. I still have no idea what type of weapon you're trying to emulate, other than you want something inaccurate that hits moving targets.
Still it was kind of them to suggest a few things, it was much appreciated. So cheers to them.
Sadly without modifiable speed and acceleration tags on arcing weapons, the weapons I want to make may be impossible. QUICK_EDIT
Well, frankly that achieves the job somewhat (still not direct shot but with an arc) but given its global change I did not mention it as makes hover units especially look dumb and bombs fall perhaps ridiculously fast.
Most ideal would be weapon specific gravity feature given nothing else seemingly affects them for Ares wishlist.
BTW splits logic in Ares does not have the speed/damage hardcoding stuff thus better than TS:FS original QUICK_EDIT
BTW splits logic in Ares does not have the speed/damage hardcoding stuff thus better than TS:FS original
Indeed. TS Splits second stage weapons are unfortunately hardcoded to Speed=20, which really is a shame and i would love to see this hardcoded restriction removed by any TS exe pro (Hyper, Iran ? ). It makes these weapons completely useless as AA, since most aircraft are faster than a Speed=20 projectile.
Also note that in TS you can't have an arcing projectile as the Splits second stage. In TS such a projectile will simply fall down, since the second stage projectiles starting angle is directly down and arcing projectiles can't turn due to ROT=0.
In Ares the Splits logic is surely a lot different working, so you have to try it there to really be sure if it works for you or not. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
you could try custom missiles if your only giving it 1 weapon...
Code:
CMislPauseFrames=20 ; How many frames the rocket pauses on the launcher before tilting
CMislTiltFrames=30 ;100 ; How many frames it takes for the missile to tilt (or lift) to firing position
CMislPitchInitial=1 ; Starting pitch of the missile before tilting up (0=horizontal,1=vertical)
CMislPitchFinal=1.0 ; Ending pitch of the missile after tilting up; now it fires
CMislTurnRate=0.10 ; Pitch maneuverability of missile in air. Adjust by trial and error.
CMislRaiseRate=1 ; How much the missile will raise each turn on the launcher (for Cruise Missile only)
CMislAcceleration=1.0 ; This much is added to the missile's velocity each frame during launch
CMislAltitude=768 ; Cruising altitude in leptons: at this height missile BEGINS leveling off
CMislDamage=40 ;200 ; Exploding CMisl does this much damage (at center of explosion, presumably).
CMislEliteDamage=75 ;250 ; Exploding CMisl does this much damage (at center of explosion, presumably).
CMislBodyLength=128 ; The body of the rocket is this many leptons long
CMislLazyCurve=no ; The rocket's path is a big, lazy curve.
CMislType=CMISL
That's how my Cruise Missile code and it usually arcs like how people want artillery shells and is faster than the normal projectiles. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
You can increase Gravity ( in [AudioVisual] )to speedup arcing projectiles. This also lower the arc.
However, changing gravity will also affect vertical projectiles and hover units.
Increasing the gravity does actually produce the effect I want, but effects all arcing weapons and does as you know bring with it many side-effects.
Atomic_Noodles wrote:
you could try custom missiles if your only giving it 1 weapon...
Code:
CMislPauseFrames=20 ; How many frames the rocket pauses on the launcher before tilting
CMislTiltFrames=30 ;100 ; How many frames it takes for the missile to tilt (or lift) to firing position
CMislPitchInitial=1 ; Starting pitch of the missile before tilting up (0=horizontal,1=vertical)
CMislPitchFinal=1.0 ; Ending pitch of the missile after tilting up; now it fires
CMislTurnRate=0.10 ; Pitch maneuverability of missile in air. Adjust by trial and error.
CMislRaiseRate=1 ; How much the missile will raise each turn on the launcher (for Cruise Missile only)
CMislAcceleration=1.0 ; This much is added to the missile's velocity each frame during launch
CMislAltitude=768 ; Cruising altitude in leptons: at this height missile BEGINS leveling off
CMislDamage=40 ;200 ; Exploding CMisl does this much damage (at center of explosion, presumably).
CMislEliteDamage=75 ;250 ; Exploding CMisl does this much damage (at center of explosion, presumably).
CMislBodyLength=128 ; The body of the rocket is this many leptons long
CMislLazyCurve=no ; The rocket's path is a big, lazy curve.
CMislType=CMISL
That's how my Cruise Missile code and it usually arcs like how people want artillery shells and is faster than the normal projectiles.
I don't think custom missiles allow inaccuracy do they? And I'm trying to make a tank cannon now not a artillery, thanks anyway.
@LKO & ApolloTD - So they can be made to go alot faster? I'll probably try a splits weapon in YR today then at some point. Even better if the second stage can be a arcing weapon.
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:23 am Post subject:
Ballistic missiles don't even track. They are targeting a position - so in a way, they are inaccurate by default.
I like that I'm full of myself because I was telling you to try it out in YR - because I knew it act differently. I am using arcing second stages all the time here.
You have found 2 differences in this topic between the games - you didn't even thought that they would differ in Splits too? Especially if you would think about it and realize that one can't really copy-paste code from one game to the other - so there probably are subtle differences between Ares's and Firestorm's split implementation. One doesn't need to be Sherlock to deduce this (not to mention if one checks the Ares 0.7 beta showcase posts, where EVA-251 used Splits with a Lobber as seen on a screenshot, it would have been no need to deduce this with logic neither).
Way to go, fool, way to go. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Ballistic missiles don't even track. They are targeting a position - so in a way, they are inaccurate by default.
I like that I'm full of myself because I was telling you to try it out in YR - because I knew it act differently. I am using arcing second stages all the time here.
You have found 2 differences in this topic between the games - you didn't even thought that they would differ in Splits too? Especially if you would think about it and realize that one can't really copy-paste code from one game to the other - so there probably are subtle differences between Ares's and Firestorm's split implementation. One doesn't need to be Sherlock to deduce this (not to mention if one checks the Ares 0.7 beta showcase posts, where EVA-251 used Splits with a Lobber as seen on a screenshot, it would have been no need to deduce this with logic neither).
Way to go, fool, way to go.
I am trying it in YR now. I can't be arsed to argue with you if your just going to be aggressive, maybe it's best you leave this thread. Seeing as you still have this strange hatred of me for some unknown reason. QUICK_EDIT
The splits logic seems to have been mostly a success. It's inaccurate, but can hit moving targets. Although like LKO said arcing second stages don't work.
Everything would be great, but there is one small niggle I think I'll just mention. It seems inaccurate arcing weapons firing from the north are far more accurate than those firing from the south. E.G: In a fight between two units armed with a inaccurate arcing weapon, if one unit is from the south of the map and the other is from the north. Probably a 90% chance the unit in the south of the map will win, as the unit in the south is much more accurate than the unit in the north. Atleast that's whats happening with my inaccurate splits weapons.
So in a mod where the map has a team start at the north and another at the south. The south sides artillery or whatever has a massive advantage over the north sides. QUICK_EDIT
I think what you describe here is a bug that existed already in TS.
There you could notice it best on anti-air weapons.
Is the aircraft north of the AA site, the aircraft has a much higher chance to not get hit, than with the aircraft south of the AA site.
In TS the problem seems to be the pseudo 3D range calculation. Or a problem to convert the 3D value into the 2D scene.
Attached is an image to show the issue.
In a 3d world, x1 and x2 as well as y1 and y2 would be the same.
In a 2d visualisation, x1 and x2 are still the same, but y1 is longer than y2.
A missile firing south, using the ground range x2, has obviously more than enough range to hit visually in a 2d world the target. y2, the true 3d range from firer to target is shorter in a 2d visualisation than the ground distance x2.
Firing north using the ground distance x1, doesn't has the range y1, to hit the flying aircraft.
It's only a simple example and the explanation for the issue only found from observation.
The true formula used by the engine could work different or have somewhere else the problem.
Aye, what you describe with the TS SAMS does seem similar to my issue. Only the north is more likely to get hit.
My weapons first stage is arcing then the second stage is like a standard missile.
Shame everything Seemed okay until I noticed this issue. I'll keep tinkering to see if I can numb the problem somewhat, don't suppose you could suggest anything that might help? QUICK_EDIT
How does your weapon split?
Right above the target or a few cells away?
I don't have any experience in RA2 Ares splits logic, so i can only tell you how it would be in TS.
In TS, when a weapon Splits or uses Cluster, then it is vice versa as your case and southern targets are better hit. This is because the second stage projectile is starting with a south facing. So it is much harder for the projectile to completely rotate around and hit something north.
The only hint i would have, is reducing as much as possible the range the second stage has to fly.
It also helps to give the second stage ROT=100 so it can rotate instantly and this way reduces the start facing issue.
But i have no clue if Ares Splits even has a fixed start facing for the second stage. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
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Arcing weapon issue
